tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2263246662222347626.post5487454998077452263..comments2023-12-19T01:30:13.647-08:00Comments on Panorama of a Book Saint: "God or Godless?" (John W. Loftus and Randal Rauser)Conrade Yap, (Dr)http://www.blogger.com/profile/12256834680709396244noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2263246662222347626.post-35835367948081280522013-05-22T10:10:00.273-07:002013-05-22T10:10:00.273-07:00Hi Travis,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I...Hi Travis,<br /><br />Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I appreciate the time and effort you have taken to explain your perspective and I am grateful for that. I remember I have stated upfront that I am already biased, so your point about me being unbiased has already been addressed. That said, I still that that everyone of us comes forth with a certain level of bias. Even your reply is not immune to that. <br /><br />With regards to your remark about me "rejecting the theist POV," I think that itself is incorrect. Having "doubts" does not amount to pure rejection. It simply means that I am not convinced. I too get a feeling that the disagreements about the use of A-theism is more about semantics rather than any philosophical matter. Your passion and belief about science is noted. My question will be: Will you be fair to assign that belief to religion as well? <br /><br />I find it quite intriguing that you make such a distinction between belief and faith. In some way, you have also caricatured religions somewhat unfairly. Not all religious adherents are able to say with 100% certainty about their religion, just like they cannot say with 100% certainly about non-religions. For that matter, everyone has faith. The difference is that they express that faith in different things. <br /><br />For the record, I have not said that I am some kind of an expert or have based my stand on the reading on just one book. Doing a book review does not necessarily mean I have been fully informed about all of atheism or theism. It is simply a snapshot of one's opinion at the time of reviewing. <br /><br />At a philosophical level, I remain unconvinced about your take on "atheism is not a belief system." Your statement itself about atheism is already an affirmation. The moment you deny that affirmation, or statements thereof, there is no platform to stand. The clue is this. The more strongly one feels about any one stand, one is already acting out affirmatively or "religiously." <br /><br />I appreciate your suggestion about meeting with group of atheists and freethinkers. Do be assured that I do have friends of that group, and we respectfully agree / disagree on matters such as these. For the record, your last statement is an unfair description of my stand, because nowhere in my review, have I ever stated that I am one who "suddenly understand the whole argument."<br /><br />Respectfully,<br /><br />conradeConrade Yap, (Dr)https://www.blogger.com/profile/12256834680709396244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2263246662222347626.post-31988784640622052042013-05-22T05:42:35.635-07:002013-05-22T05:42:35.635-07:00I know you think you were unbiased in your reading...I know you think you were unbiased in your reading of this book. However, you weren't. The reason Rauser's sections felt more well put together is because you have a deep confirmation bias. You were predisposed to accepting a theist POV and rejecting the atheist POV.<br /><br />Some quick thoughts for you though that will help you not sound quite so uninformed...<br /><br />THEIST from THEISM<br /><br />1. the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation ( distinguished from deism ).<br />2. belief in the existence of a god or gods ( opposed to atheism ). <br /><br />ATHEIST<br /><br />(A) meaning not (non) or without. (Theist) the belief in a god or gods.<br /><br />Atheism is to belief as bald is to a hair color. Meaning, atheism is not a belief system. It is the LACK of belief.<br /><br />Belief: (1)An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.<br />(2)Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.<br /><br />Faith: (1)Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.<br />(2)Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.<br /><br />Notice that belief and faith are NOT the same thing. Atheists can have beliefs but in general do not have faith. Faith taking the second meaning of the word.<br /><br />Your assumption that atheism is a religious belief the same as Christianity or Hinduism is a false assumption. It is not a belief, it is the lack of belief. Faith enters no-where into the conversation for us.<br /><br />As for the validity of science and its demonstrated ability to solve problems, one only needs to look at the machine you are reading this message on to affirm the truth of that statement. Science has been able to provide (as a tool used by human beings and as a mode of thought, not a religious belief system) strong self evidence for its ability to handle almost every problem thrown at it. It is also self correcting in that when it makes a statement and is proven wrong, it is ALWAYS proven wrong by more and better science. <br /><br />Whereas, a theistic world view is solely informed via its respective ancient texts written by ancient human beings. Those cannot be changed or ignored. Yet they have grossly incorrect factual statements and their moral fortitude is archaic at best and genocidal at worst. This is not to say that theists are evil people. I know many who are very good people. Proof that despite a belief in a god, you can be a good person.<br /><br />If you want to really understand an atheistic POV, you should find a local group of atheists and freethinkers, sit with them, and ask questions. Don't think you can read just a single book and suddenly understand the whole argument.Travishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06957133995828902309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2263246662222347626.post-9147033108987218912013-05-21T11:10:34.172-07:002013-05-21T11:10:34.172-07:001. If there is no God, then life has no meaning.
...1. If there is no God, then life has no meaning.<br /><br />If god is the highest power, and answers to know one, being the first "being" who has always been there, without even a cause... god himself has no meaning, no purpose. There is nothing he NEEDS to do. That is therefore a worse fate for the beings he creates. If the creator has no meaning, surely it's creations have no meaning either. Our meaning may be to worship him forever in heaven, but why? What is the greater purpose in that? What meaning is there in forever worshiping a being that has no reason for existence with no obligations?<br /><br />2. If there is no God, then everything is permitted.<br /><br />Isn't anything also permitted if there is a god who can do whatever he wants? There is no absolute right and wrong because god gets to decide that. There may be sub-reasons why things aren't permitted for our level of being-ness or humans. But in the grand scheme of things, the bottom line, the big picture, anything could be permitted. God gets to choose. So we may have our own "permissions" from god but that's meaningless when the permission giver has no reason to give the permissions except because he feels like it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com